Curse

Dahl · Feb 27, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

I just want to point out.. people have to stop worrying so much about finding a godly build or anything of the sort.

Finding a great build on google will not win you GvGs, and will not let you hold hoh for long, if at all.

People go on observer, and watch top guilds and hoh holders, and try to mimick their builds.

If they have held hoh for a long time, or if they are one of the top guilds, they did not get that far by using other peoples builds. They made their own, and practiced. People think "hey, if they're rank --, maybe I can get there too if I use their build" No, it does not work that way.

Any guild that is worth.. well, anything, came up with their OWN builds and strategies and spent countless hours practicing it.

Gale warriors are the most common of these copycat players, along with boon-prot, energy denial mesmers, and blinding flash eles are on the rise ever since the top guilds began using it.

I come up with all kinds of builds, i brainstorm and look for things that people do not use. It's amazing how many great skill combos that are unused and are unexpected. I can't tell you how many times I've caught an enemy team off guard with my own build, and they had no idea how to counter it.

Stay fresh people, use your own brain.

I'd also like to point out that any fame/rank that any IWAY team (besides the pioneers of the build which date back to the spring and summer of 2005) received in hoh is completely false and was gained with no skill, only an overpowered build.

What are you going to do when IWAY gets... "changed"? You're gonna be sitting there with your thumb up your ass wondering what to do since the only build you can play has been taken away from you.

Stand on your own two feet people. The secret to this game is to be unique and different.

Effigy · Feb 27, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I agree with your general message, but I also disagree on some points. Yes, creativity and individuality are important. Having a good build is important, but being experienced and knowing how to use that build is even more important. Copying builds from the top guilds isn't going to win any battles for you.

On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with watching good players and getting ideas from them, so long as you don't just copy their builds without actually understanding how or why it works. Sometimes the top guilds develop strategies that you hadn't considered, and you can be stronger by learning from their expertise. Also, skilled players and guilds generally have a good feel for what is going on with the current metagame, so by watching them you can see what areas you might want to be focusing on. However, I definitely agree that just duplicating their skillbars and not giving it any personal thought is a bad idea.

Dahl · Feb 27, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

That's what people do though.
Gale warriors weren't around before observer mode in the general public.
Best thing for me to do, look at their build, try it out for myself, search for my weaknesses, and then make a build based on those weaknesses so that i can beat the original creators when I face them.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 28, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

The only thing I hate is something like "Someone bought this game for 2 days and discover gale warrior all on his/her own, but the moment he/she try it, he/she was bashed as copycat".

Dahl · Feb 28, 2006, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Never really happens...
The majority of people who just start out just get bashed for being wamos, since thats what almost everyone starts out as.

Even I started as a wamo, but that was the first week of game release so nobody really bashed it due to the lack of experts at that time.

That was the best time for this game. Everyone did missions together, there would be like 12 different parties in a town. Now it's all about running and getting to Drok's at level 1 and overpriced useless items *cough* Sundering mods.

It was a lot friendlier back then too. People used to talk as if they were in the game. There was no annoying spamming or begging or cussing.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 28, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I think you are using the wrong method to try to convince people.

If you stop one from doing something, you better be able to shift their attention some where else for them to focus. If not, they will simply go back to what their focus was. The focus have to go some where, you can't just take focus off of this and expect them to find another focus by themselves.

EXAMPLE:
1-
a. Where to eat?
b. burger king...
a. No, eat something else
b. like what?
a. ...
b. burger king...

2-
a. Where to eat?
b. burger king...
a. No, eat something else, what about fried chicken?
b. O.o haven't eat fried chicken for awhile, sure

To achieve something, there need to be a goal, a will, and a way.

So if you take off their focus on "finding godly build", you have to be able to put them on something equivalent.

PS: Teaching a man while he is eating his fish that was handed to him, generally don't work.

... so off topic...
===================
Things like that does happen. People also wrongly take/give credit for builds. Personally, I wish all these "Who discover what" all disappear, or at least not be that big of a deal.

One more thing... copying is human nature. Without copying, this whole society wouldn't exist.

Dahl · Feb 28, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

I did point them in a direction.
I said to come up with your own builds, entirely.
Experiment.
Put together builds that no one would expect.
Use skills that no one else ever uses.
If I shared my secrets to build-making, then my builds would become common and turn into google builds, which defeats the purpose.

Just do things that no one else ever does. There are some ENTIRE attributes that go unused. Take advantage of it.

Warskull · Feb 28, 2006, 11:08 AM // 11:08

You can get very high in the ladder stealing a build or running a single build into the ground. Come any sort of tournament style play you will be severely punished for it (as iQ did to EP.) In addition observing the top guilds is a good thing. You can learn a lot by watching good players. For example top guilds don't run tanks, don't use healing breeze, coordinate spikes, tend to run energy management, and use positioning to their advantage.

In addition studying highly effective build gives you insight into different playstyles and potential flaws in your own builds. Was another team trying to achieve the same goal as you, but came up with a better way to achieve it?

Players need a place to start. Adopting functional builds and learning from there is an excellent start.

JR · Feb 28, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Build quality is more important than originality. You are playing to win, after all.

Yes some top guilds builds may be difficult for a less experienced guild to run, but they can practice. Eventaully once they get the hang of it, they could even start thinking about modifying it or finding a new build. I would much rather new guilds picked up on good builds to use from observer mode, than tried to run trash because they didn't know any better. It's an educational process.

Dahl · Feb 28, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

That's why you make a build that isn't trash.
Don't just throw it together and assume that it will work.
You're obviously going to be spending weeks perfecting it.
I'm still the owner of a wonderful and godly prot build.

A prot build that can even shrug off energy denial like nothing.

The Noble Savage · Mar 01, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

ahh yes the art of stealing and running another's build. In my opinion the irony behind this "problem" is that you can never become as good as the creator at his own build. This has exceptions though. For example if the build is simple to run and easy to apply like IWAY or rspike its a toss-up. Once you get creative with your builds its uncopiable. Other people simply cannot execute as well as you with your own build. In reguards to being able to win with another team's build I think of course you can! however their builds are made for their playing styles so you would have to copy those too :P

Effigy · Mar 01, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

When it comes down to it, I think few if any builds are "original." I mean, come on. There are over a million people playing this game. Just because you come up with a build on your own doesn't mean its never been done before, though it may not be common. Trying to be unique in a game like this is a vain effort.

The important thing is not being different, but being purposeful and self-reflective about how you play the game. Just copying someone else's build exactly without taking the time to wonder why it's even a good build, or if it could be improved in some way, is not a good strategy. But on the other hand, if you copy someone's build because they came up with a clever strategy you hadn't considered before and, try as you might, you cannot improve on the build they use, there's nothing wrong with it. Being different just for the sake of being different is not the path to victory. If you're not concerned with victory, then carry on as you please.

Mesti Arcanus · Mar 01, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I think Effigy nailed it. Copying is fine, so long as you actually understand what you're copying, why it works, and how to use it. I agree that too many people don't do this, and instead assume they can use the build just fine.

But on the other end, it is difficult to come up with an original idea that is actually effective. The game has been out for quite some time, so this is to be expected. Honestly, I came up with a Bond build before while I was deciding to run a monk, and I hadn't seen the thing before. Then I saw it online, and was actually quite happy to have found it, because I could look at what other people had done with the same build and see what solutions they had developed to the same problems I was facing. With some analysis of other's work, and some experimenting of my own, I'm now quite happy with the buid I run. But that doesn't mean I'll stop there, as it, and all my builds, are works in progress.

Wait for Ch. 2, when new skills (and entirely new classes) add a whole new dimension to the game, and open up completely new posssibilities for a while. Those of us who are creative will have new grounds to explore, and people who aren't will continue to Xerox our results.

Effigy · Mar 01, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Oh yeah, I'm all about Factions. Should be very interesting to see what crops up.

Warskull · Mar 02, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahl

That's why you make a build that isn't trash.
Don't just throw it together and assume that it will work.
You're obviously going to be spending weeks perfecting it.
I'm still the owner of a wonderful and godly prot build.

A prot build that can even shrug off energy denial like nothing.

How are players susposed to know what is good or not without any PvP experience?

007Bistromath · Mar 02, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

The problem I see with this whole mindset is that there is a certain number of combinations which just objectively work right now, and anything else will be sub-optimal at best. Somebody making their own build without doing something off the wall that doesn't work only has maybe two skill slots which are actually variable, because the rest of the bar is taken up by staples which are necessary to remain competitive. So, the problem is less with the players and more with the current state of skills. We'll have to hope that rebalancing and new skills help to make up for that, though what I've seen of the Chapter 2 skills so far mostly seems like a pretty bad omen.

PS: For the record, I made all my own builds myself. I didn't know until after I had already played each one for a little while that they are all just like a million other chars, and some of them are now outdated FotMs. So, that should tell you what I mean here.

Senator Tom · Mar 02, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

and remember, if you have sucky boon prots that forget to cast divine boon and never remove conditions, your gonna lose, even if they have the best boon prot build out there.

4runner · Mar 03, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

how does one become original in a game were originality is flamed or frowned upon! This thread is for NOt! Mute! If you want original build, go back to playing D&D!! THere is no original or unique build, they are all in one way or another related to each other! If skills are not improved across all attribute lines and profession then you will continue to have the Fotm or copy cats builds!

People use whats effective, there seems to be only a handfull of builds that are truly effective, so this will continue to be!!

d3kst3r · Mar 04, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Winning PvP is 40% build and 60% personal skill.
Why are some IWAYs defeated in the first round and others go on to win HoH? It all comes down to personal skill.

Juicey Shake · Mar 04, 2006, 04:07 AM // 04:07

observer mode is good for semi-copying too... starts you off on the right foot for some build ya wanna try out, weee...

I ... [insert uncalled for flame here ~_~, decided not to put it..]